Should MPs have been told about the spending review first?
June 29th, 2009
Is Speaker Bercow going to follow through on his warning?
Last Wednesday in his statement after PMQs Speaker Bercow made it clear that the first place ministers should make announcements was to the house of commons.
Well what’s he going to do about Peter Mandelson’s radio comments this morning that the spending review will be postponed until after the election? Surely this big news on the government’s management of the economy should have come first in a statement to MPs?
What’s a bit tricky here is that the “announcement” came from the minister for everything, Lord Mandelson, who is not even a member of the house of commons.
Is Bercow going to let this one pass or his he going to lay the law down? If he fails to act now on this one then it’s going to be much harder in the future.
This news should have come, anyway, from the chancellor, Alistair Darling as the Standard’s Paul Waugh has pointed out. How long, you wonder, can Darling, who managed to cling onto his job, going to be humiliated in this way?
Maggie Thatcher will tell you that there comes a point when treating your chancellor in such a manner could cause an explosion.
Mike Smithson
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Twenty third!
I certainly hope Bercow does do something about this, he needs to set down a marker now or else he will just lose authority.
If MPs are to be told anything first, it should surely be the Government’s craven decision to hide it’s spending cuts.
If I were a bloke I’d be a real gent - 4th?
Well the Treasury are saying that the Chancellor hasn’t made a decision yet. It would be nice to see the Speaker remind ministers that policy statements should be made to the House, although I’m not sure non-statements count do they?
As if Mandy gives a hoot about the speaker.
ICM/BBC Scotland poll:
‘Backing for more Holyrood powers’
The majority of Scots want Holyrood to be given the power to make decisions about income tax and old age pensions, a BBC Scotland poll has suggested. But 63% still want Westminster to retain control over defence and foreign policy matters, according to the poll.
The poll of 1,010 people also suggested 56% wanted a referendum before Holyrood’s powers are increased.
When asked who should make most of the decisions for Scotland about income tax, 62% said the Scottish Government while 34% said the UK Government.
The question of who should have responsibility for old age pensions received a similar response, with 65% saying it should be devolved to Holyrood, but only 32% wanting control retained at Westminster.
An even bigger percentage - 78% - backed the Scottish Government making the big decisions over the NHS in Scotland, with 19% believing health policy should be decided by Westminster. The issue is already devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
When asked which scenario came closest to their view of how Scotland should be governed, 28% said Scotland should become independent, with the Scottish Parliament able to make all decisions about taxation and spending, while 47% backed Scotland remaining part of the UK, but with increased power of taxation and spending being handed to Holyrood. A further 22% said Scotland should remain part of the UK, with decisions about taxation and spending made by the UK Government.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/8124129.stm
A Government of hoons so what’s it matter.
I’m kinda surprised that there hasn’t been even a token effort to play the announcement game [just a couple of 'well I can't announce but our vision is stuff doesn't count].
I know that the news-cycle argument is a strong one - but if HMG boxed clever they could find a way to make announcements in time to catch the evening/first editions.
If Bercow is to deliver on his promise, then PMQs should be amusing. I assume there is no reason why Bercow couldn’t make a statement outside of Parliament about his disappointment???
That would be even more amusing
ICM/BBC Scotland poll, continued:
Scotland ‘now has stronger voice’
Most Scots believe Holyrood has given Scotland a stronger voice in the UK, according to a poll for BBC Scotland. But Scots also seem inclined to grumble about the share-out of public spending across the border.
On the question of Scotland’s clout in the UK, it seems 55% of Scots reckon devolution has given Scotland a stronger voice. However, 9% said it had a weaker voice, while 34% say there had been no difference.
Some 43% of those in our survey felt that Scotland gets less than its fair share, compared with other parts of the UK. Of those questioned, 37% thought the allocation was about right in terms of fairness, while 12% thought Scotland gets too much by comparison with other areas.
NATIONAL IDENTITY
26% feel Scottish, not British
31% feel more Scottish than British
29% feel equally British and Scottish
4% feel more British than Scottish
9% feel British, not Scottish
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/8123346.stm
Should MPs have been told about the spending review first?
Well, it depends what ’should’ means.
The fact is that afternoon announcements are media-cycle unfriendly.
There are very important visibility reasons why the Today programme is the forum of choice for announcing policy.
Those reasons aren’t going away any time soon. They won’t go away when the Conservatives get in either.
Bercow can’t do anything about it. Sad but true.
So here we go on the Norwich North trail.
Absolutely NO more ‘Punch and Judy politics.’
Mandy: You B********* liar!
Chamereon: You B********* liar!
Mandy: You B******* liar!
Chamereon: You B******* liar!
Mandy: You B***** liar!
Chamereon: You B***** liar!
Mandy: You B*** liar!
Chamereon: You B*** liar!
Mandy: You B* liar!
Chamereon: You B* liar!
Mandy: You Bliar!
Chamereon: You Bliar!
The truth will out in the end!
re 10 So that’s a bit of defeat from Brown’s “Britishness” campaign…
Sorry that was a gimmick of yesteryear - I should have remembered. Gimmicks like this never get followed through.
10. That poll suggests hard core Nat attitudes running at a mere quarter of the voters, Stuart. Very disappointing for you I would have thought.
Plato. In my opinion you are good enough for associated bloke status, and probably as an honorary Gentilehomme as well.
re 12. The truth is simple Wage Slave - Mandy/Brown don’t tell the truth.
Brian Taylor, BBC Scotland’s political editor says that we will get “more tomorrow” from their ICM poll:
“… how about income tax and pensions? Tax is almost entirely controlled by Westminster at the moment - with the exception of the never-used 3p variation. Pensions are wholly reserved.
Yet by margins of around two to one in each case respondents to our poll indicated their preference for Holyrood control.
John Curtice, the wizard of the figures, says this is in line with previous comparable findings which suggest, among other things, that Scots might be inclined to go further than Calman when it comes to transferring new powers to Holyrood.
They may not want to make changes to, for example, pensions and social security provision. But they appear to want such matters run from Edinburgh.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/briantaylor/2009/06/devolution_poll.html
In case you missed it, here was the first installment of the giant ICM/BBC Scotland poll, published yesterday afternoon:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/scotland/8123114.stm
16.
The Mandy-Chammereon battle to be the next PM Bliar will be an interesting tussle.
re 19 What lie is Cameron telling here?
One for Mr Morris Dancer
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196267/Morris-dancers-banned-primary-school-plan-black-event.html?ITO=1490
re 18. The poll only has validity if it was past voted weighted. My guess is that it wasn’t because this basic measure to ensure a politically sample has never been used in BBC commissioned polls.
Mike - “Maggie Thatcher will tell you that there comes a point when treating your chancellor in such a manner could cause an explosion.”
Will Alistair Darling “do a Geoffrey Howe”?
Let’s hope so!
(It is probably about the only thing that could save him his seat… at a pinch.)
Re the article - can’t be a deliberate humiliation because Darling is his first choice Chancellor……….
I think the behaviour of our First Secretary is one of the main reasons for getting rid of any appointed element to a reformed HoL.
In any modern democracy, no-one should have that much power without having to face the electorate.
Government ministers should all be elected and not just elevated to the HoL by a weak PM
Mr Grumpy, I am touched
22. Mike, past-vote weighting would give this ICM poll more validity, but a lack of past-vote weighting does not give a poll no validity!
They will still have weighted by age-group, socio-economic group, gender and probably educational status and newspaper readership etc.
Do not throw the baby out just cos the bathwater is a little less than crystal clear.
It is rumoured that one of Berkcow’s ‘modernisations’ will be to bring the new SW19 selection policy to SW1. What’s good enough for Centre Court is good enough for PMQs. Show a leg, sailor an you’ll be in!
So it’s bring on Hunky Dunky and Cleggover and bad news for Mad Nad and Widders.
21 - this one looks particularly interesting:
>> “Molly Dancing - East Anglian tango-style dancing by out-of-work ploughmen.”
Presumably they display both Spanish influence and furrowed brows
19.
No specific Chammielie today - just avoiding telling the truth like the plague. I agree it is difficult to lie when you’re talking about Brown’s lies
20 Cameron says there will be painful cuts, but fails to say where the pain will fall. In that vacuum, everyone naturally allocates the pain elsewhere. If Cameron has developed plans, such as cutting/restricting/ending public sector pensions, he should publish them before the election, so people can vote accordingly. Anything else is a lie of omission.
21, argh!
See how politically correct bullshit gets in the way of glorious morris dancing
Someone mentioned on the last thread about the crap performance of MPs who are ministers as well [of course other MPs can be crap as well].
I rather like the idea of an Exec being separate from Parliament but held to account by it.
On an elected HoL - I think that would be a disaster, full of party animals with vote grubbing noses.
I’m quite happy with the present system although I do object to the elevation of those who are purely placemen and without any great service for the country to their name.
Being in the Lords should be the greatest political honour, not smarties/cash for laws opportunities.
And Peter Mandy Questions - well I despair!!
31 - The Government won’t even publish a spending review before the election review; why on earth should the Tories publish their plans?
Your bias is so strong it has blinded you.
10. I think you have the low point of Unionist sentiment in Scotland there:
29% feel equally British and Scottish
4% feel more British than Scottish
9% feel British, not Scottish
42% have a significant attachment to the label “British”.
However, in a referendum, I’d expect independence to be defeated by 65%/35% (far larger than some suspect) and there is evidence for that in the finding below:
“63% still want Westminster to retain control over defence and foreign policy matters, according to the poll.”
“47% backed Scotland remaining part of the UK, but with increased power of taxation and spending being handed to Holyrood. A further 22% said Scotland should remain part of the UK, with decisions about taxation and spending made by the UK Government.”
Adding together strong pro-unionists (about 20% of Scots) with Moderate Devolutionists (about 45% of Scots) gives you that magic figure of 65%.
Scots might feel strongly and proudly Scottish but the majority still don’t want to leave the UK.
No independence for the forseeable future methinks.
Watch Obama advisor David Axelrod do the Mexican hat dance around the question of whether Obama will break his pledge to not raise any taxes on those making less than $250,000 per year, specifically regarding healthcare reform:
http://www.darkskiesblog.com/2009/06/29/obama-wont-rule-out-middle-class-tax-hike-video-of-stephanopoulis-alexrod-interview/
I always thought this particular promise wasn’t worth much, but it will be fun to nail Obama to the wall on it when he breaks it just as the first President Bush was crucified over “no new taxes.”
34 A policy as dramatic as ending public sector pension provision would lack legitimacy if not specifically raised before a general election. A blanket mandate for “painful” cuts does not cover it IMO.
21. The Shropshire Morris Men do the same… though red outfits are friendlier than the funeral garb of the Essex lot, IMO
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paullew/441226540/in/set-72157600038842274/
35. I agree - these numbers aren’t great for the Nats. And if the poll isn’t properly weighted as Mike suggests, they are even worse.
It suggests much of the SNP’s current popularity is of the ‘faute de mieux’ kind - not that surprising if you consider the sheer awfulness of Labour and the weak position of the Tories north of the border, but far from necessarily being permanent.
31 What rot, Jonathan. How can you, with (presumably!) a straight face, say that on a day when the government has postposed its Comprehensive Spending Review?
37 - and who is to say it won’t be raised before a general election? We’re not going to get one for 10 months or so; why should the Tories make any financial policy committments until the last moment when the government isn’t just hiding figures - it’s changing the dates of things so it can lie its way through an election campaign.
31 Jonathon - how on Earth is Cameron et al to know where to make cuts if they have no idea what HMG have been doing with our money?
Putting off the spending review makes it IMPOSSIBLE for the Opposition to make plans on anything other than an educated guess.
And if they publish the details of their best guesses - Labour will jump up and down all over them without the Tories having the data to rebut it.
That’s what makes Gordon’s administration even more underhand then I thought possible.
30. “Chammelie”???
Please. “Chamereon” is tiresome, unfunny, boring and cliched, but… Chammelie??
Time to pension off your little “joke”.
Jonathan. There is no way that DC can plan any cuts as he has no idea just how bad the books are going to be. Any going concern has 2 sets of books - one for the public and one for the board of directors. We’ve seen the public books for UK Plc. The Tories cannot carry out due diligence until they scrape Brown off the doorstep of No. 10. I would suggest that the result will not be pretty.
42 “That’s what makes Gordon’s administration even more underhand then I thought possible.”
And even more politically inept. It gives Cameron a get out of jail card.
Brown: Tell us where the Tory cuts will fall!
Cameron: Show us the books. Then we will.
Brown: Er…um…er…oh bugger….
Bercow will do nothing about this announcement by Mandy or the other pre-announcements such as “houses for locals” that have happened.
14. That poll suggests hard core BritNat attitudes running at a mere 9% of the voters, runnymede. Very disappointing for you I would have thought.
46 Then Bercow is a crap Speaker. Get rid…
37. Jonathan - you are the new Mandybot and i claim my 5€ prize!
40 You can’t have it both ways. Your criticisms of Brown apply equally to St Dave. Giving the relative polling positions of the parties it is arguable that the Tories plans should be receiving as much if not more scrutiny than Labours. He has plans that should be voted on, he should disclose them before the election and spend his time winning support for them rather than questioning others honesty.
The more interesting question is how long will the money markets let the Govt get away with avoiding any details of cuts in spending?
The OECD warning today of 90%+ borrowing levels etc just adds to the pressure on the Govt.
49 I am no Mandybot, just think Dave should be put through his paces before an election. Quoting Brown does this or that as a defence for Dave’s vacuous comments is pretty poor.
14. It suggests - quite rightly, in my view - that most Scots are not radical nationalists but are motivated more by a desire to have a greater say over their own affairs because they have a different political culture to England/Wales. They want to be governed more closely in accordance with their wishes and I can understand that.
This is sometimes misunderstood to be a yearning desire for total independence, but most Scots still see the value of remaining in the UK and do not want to secede from it.
That may change with time - but it’s not apparant yet.
13. Mike - “Brown’s “Britishness” campain… a gimmick of yesteryear… Gimmicks like this never get followed through”
Brown is not a gifted strategic thinker. He launched into his eye-rolling “Britishness” campaign without having the faintest scoobie how it would pan out.
When it met with universal ridicule and humiliation he just conveniently forgot about the whole thing.
He has the attention span of a baboon.
54 A bit like the Tories flirtation with Green politics.
Stop the press!
I’ve found Morris Dancer!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/98/StompMorrisdance.jpg
34 - If the Tories have plans it is dishonest not to put them in front of the electorate for inspection. It is the Tories that are rightly calling for honesty in public life, but in doing that they need to demonstrate their own honesty. They could be completely upfront about how the shadow cabinet is funded, but they choose not to be; they could be completely upfront about their plans once in government, but they choose not to be. As Jonathan says, that is lying by omission.
Certain people on here that bash Cameron for not announcing exactly where the cuts will fall, when Labour are themselves in denial about their own economic plans and lies about falling investment (cuts) are “hypocrites that are living their lives in a bubble”
50 HAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHA
Have you considered a career in stand-up?
So HMG can just decide not to publish the CSR, lie about cuts in the face of their own figures and the Opposition should be psychically formulating a Budget?
The Tories should be facing more scrutiny? Why? They aren’t spending our grandchildren’s money as I type.
50 Jonathan - You seem to have forgotten which party is in power. It is Labour which is refusing to provide the base economic forecasts and spending plans which would have to form the starting point. Will the Tories cut, say, defence spending in 2011-2012 by 10%, compared with Labour’s plans? How can anyone possibly answer that question if they don’t know what the government’s current plans are?
37 - Cameron will not be honest unless it is in his interests to be so. Thus, he will behave like all other politicians. Everything he says on this subject is spin.
Bercow’s intentions here are good but implimenting the policy is harder than drafting it.
This section of his ‘manifesto’ will fail.
They will continue to announce things on the Today programme - regardless of whether they are in the Lords or the Commons.
Bercow may huff and puff with genuine discontent but he is not going to get anywhere with this.
50.”it is arguable that the Tories plans should be receiving as much if not more scrutiny than Labours. ”
Jonathan, no one can say that the media have been anything other than obsessional in their scrutiny of the Conservatives spending plans before every GE since Labour won power. Its been the main Labour attack strategy remember? The problem has been the opposite in fact, not enough really robust scrutiny, or anyone prepared to challenge of Brown’s figures for far too long, and I think that the media are about as culpable as Brown on that score. And the bottom line, if the Conservatives present credible figures, they will be received that way.
But what we are now seeing from Brown&Co defies belief, and that is why they are getting so much heat right now.
31 - oh Jon, what do you make of Labours approach??
FPT - hat-tip to Coldstone
This is a fascinating article:
‘Tory AM calls for a Welsh parliament in a federal British state’
“Will Britain Survive Beyond 2020?”
“Unionists must take seriously the possibility that the British state might fragment within the next 20 years. Only when that risk is acknowledged can it be managed and mitigated. Whatever happens, by acknowledging the fragility of Britain, unionists can at least prevent its dissolution by stealth or neglect.”
“Today, I believe that the home nations should have their political sovereignty properly recognised; but I want these same sovereign nations to recommit themselves to the British state, and I believe that a new and fuller British nationalism will then flourish.”
“Those who dismiss federalism as fanciful fail to appreciate that the United Kingdom has already reached functional federalism and, in a sense, constitutional theory needs to catch up with political practice. Both the Scottish parliament and Northern Ireland’s Assembly are federal institutions, and the overwhelming likelihood is that the National Assembly for Wales will soon follow soon.”
“Could the Scottish Parliament be abolished at the whim of Westminster? Of course not. The devolved institutions could only be dissolved at the cost of a constitutional crisis.”
… “all unionists in Wales should be patriotic Welsh nationalists”.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/06/29/tory-am-calls-for-a-welsh-parliament-in-a-federal-british-state-91466-24008146/
57 “If the Tories have plans it is dishonest not to put them in front of the electorate”
The bloody gall! I have one word that forever prevents you or anyone from Labour or the LibDems from running that argument:
Referendum
Funny how when one Labour poster dissapears another crops up, it looks rather coordinated to me.
Left wing posters who have supported this Government under either Blair or Brown taking a pop at Dave for ‘dishonesty’?
If you are not blushing, you ought to be.
So the Tories have a problem with their spending plans?
Gordon Brown’s government relaunch was overshadowed by Cabinet disarray today as Lord Mandelson announced that a public spending review would be delayed until after the general election.
The Business Secretary pulled rank over Chancellor Alistair Darling to declare that Whitehall cash allocations beyond 2011 would not be announced before polling day.
But as the Tories warned that Labour was plotting to hide its spending cuts, the Treasury immediately contradicted Lord Mandelson and said “no decisions have been made”.
Downing Street was forced to try to shore up Mr Darling’s damaged authority, stating that it was “a matter for the Chancellor” and refusing to confirm Lord Mandelson’s timetable.
David Cameron declared the confusion was typical of a government that refused to come clean about its spending plans.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23713436-details/Cabinet+split+by+infighting+over+cuts/article.do
56 I thought that was JackW on day release…
37 Jonathan
It’s not a “formal” Conservative policy yet.
But I’ve found the best way to get answers about policy is to watch Cameron Direct events.
Cameron’s answer has been fairly consistent: that existing pensions will be unaffected; pensions for new public sector workers will move away from final salary schemes (though details are vague).
There are lots of hidden policy nuggets hidden in those events.
For example, one that I hadn’t heard before (in answer to a question on whether conscription should be reintroduced) was the fact that he supports a National Citizenship scheme for 16 year olds.
Or that he wants to raise the threshold at which part-time work reduces disability benefits to decrease welfare dependency.
Or that he wants to make 3 year spending plans instead of annual ones not just internally within government, but for government involvement with external bodies such as charities.
Most importantly, he will tell us the truth about UFOs.
None of these are manifesto pledges. But like you I was very concerned about the lack of detail in quite a few key policy areas; I’m by no means a ‘natural’ Conservative. But watching a few of these has reassured me that there is actually a reasonable amount of thought that has gone into policy behind the scenes even if I disagree sometimes with the conclusions.
On a side note, it’s funny how “scripted” his answers are though; he does the same routine every time. Makes a short speech; takes off his jacket after the first question making a joke about how he doesn’t want to remind people of Tony Blair; the same answers get regurgitated.
39 - The SNP are reaping the anti-Labour zeitgeist in Scotland, in exactly the same way as the Tories are in England.
The indpendence figures seem to show no discernable difference between now and when the SNP came to office. Equally, the identity question looks pretty much like it always has. Around 70% of Scots see themselves as British to some extent at least, while around the same figure do not want independence. In the end, the breaking up o the UK will be about sentiment and identity, and while most Scots feel some affinity with the UK Scotland will remain within the Union.
52. Johnathan how can the Tories answer your question when a) Mandelson has dismissed the budget figures as mere speculation, and b) the spending review has been kicked into the long grass, how can they answer you?
If we take the government’s position there are no meaningful figures for revenue and spending in the years beyond the current fiscal year. So how can anybody put numbers to future spending plans?
62. Indeed. Mandy may have been shoved onto the Today prog precisely to ensure that it fails.
What can Bercow do if it’s someone over whom he has no authority or sanction?
Then there are all the other Lordlings in the Cabinet that Brown can use…
When Labour (the so called government) have the b$llocks to be honest to the electorate about their spending plans, and they give the Tories site of the real mess we are in . Then and only then should the Tories be expected to outline how they are going to cut the deficit. Having some unellected tw4t announce that they are delaying their spending review until after the election stinks to high heaven and the public won’t swallow it. I hope that message is clear to some of the Labour Trolls !!
When Labour (the so called government) have the b$llocks to be honest to the electorate about their spending plans, and they give the Tories site of the real mess we are in . Then and only then should the Tories be expected to outline how they are going to cut the deficit. Having some unellected tw4t announce that they are delaying their spending review until after the election stinks to high heaven and the public won’t swallow it. I hope that message is clear to some of the Labour Trolls !!
47. I can see I have touched a raw nerve Stuart.
But you are quite wrong - as a unionist I am cheered by these results. I have no problem whatever with people feeling both Scottish and British in varying degrees.
Remember, the status quo is on our side. You are the ones who need to make the case for radical, wrenching change. The signs are you have a great deal to do in that regard.
37 - where is your evidencve of such a policy?
or are you “doing a tim”??
62 SallyC - I agree that Bercow has no power to force it but imagine if everytime it happened he made a point of it in the media?
It may be unlikely, but Humphreys saying in response to an announcement ‘Why are you telling me this when you haven’t yet told Parliament’ would be a corker.
50/57 So long as the baboon at No. 10 pretends that public spending will continue to rise over the next five years, Cameron doesn’t need to say anything except that (a) that’s rubbish and (b) sharp spending cuts are on their way. He has no need to spell out the details.
If Labour start being honest about the scale of public spending cuts that are coming, then indeed, Cameron will be under pressure to be specific.
37 - where is your evidence of such a policy?
or are you “doing a tim”??
60 But the Tories know enough to plan “painful” cuts. Given that they have said that. It reasonable to ask who is going to suffer that pain before rather than after an election. And for serious reforms like ending public sector pensions they would surely need a specific mandate?
66 I was in favour of that referendum. You have curious double standards for your own party.
58 It is Cameron who is running with the issue of “honesty” not me. Let’s call it Blair’s whiter than white mk2.
Personally, I don’t think he is telling us the truth about his plans. and is holding details back and uses all manner of excuses to justify it. I must be cynical. It be some coincidence that he stops short of saying anything that might lose him a vote.
I seem to remember Bliar’s “I have no plans to put up taxes at all”, a monstrous fraud on the British people if ever there was one.
66 - So because Labour is dishonest the Tories can be too. Is that really the Tory line?
Does Gordon really think he can get away with cancelling the CSR, thereby hiding the spending cuts his government are actually implementing.
Then demand to know the oppositions plans in detail.
If this is the strategy then Gordon needs new advisors (or start listening to any sensible ones he has).
82. We know you aren’t happy with the Tories, but do you apply the same logical argument to Labour? To be blunt do you at least concede that Gordon Brown, Ed Balls, Alistair Darling and Peter Mandelson are lying about the economy and spending?
71 wibbler - It is certainly undeniable that there is a lot more detail available about Conservative plans than the government’s, on a whole range of policy issues. The Conservative wesbite is full of detailed policy documents.
Of course, one has to be a bit careful because it is too early to make manifesto commitments, but it’s all there, in as much detail as it possibly could be at this stage.
But our Labour supporter friends aren’t interested in finding out the reality.
Another body tries to get the government to see sense.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/OECD-Calls-On-Governmnet-For-More-Cuts-On-Spending-To-Solve-Debt-And-Deficit-Problem/Article/200906415322993?lpos=Business_First_Buisness_Article_Teaser_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15322993_OECD_Calls_On_Governmnet_For_More_Cuts_On_Spending_To_Solve_Debt_And_Deficit_Problem
Going back to the last thread - a problems with any new leader and/or contest is that although it will bring some fresher air into Labour, it will also take heat off the Tories that might have arisen from closer examination in the run up to a GE.
A goverment needs to have a clearly understood agenda/identity set out weeks or months before a GE so the spotlight can turn on its opponents. That is how Major won.
A change risks the spotlight staying on them. I agree with Mike that it will provide a short term boost - but it will not any answers. Indeed it might expose the lack of them. Browns boost came when the big disaster hitting the coutry was a flood in Hull.
Why doesn’t Liz just dissolve parliament and put an end to this farce!
71.”For example, one that I hadn’t heard before (in answer to a question on whether conscription should be reintroduced) was the fact that he supports a National Citizenship scheme for 16 year olds.”
wibbler, someone can correct me if I am wrong, but Cameron’s been raising this one since the start of his leadership. We also tend to forget that he implemented some very wide ranging policy reviews which took up to a couple of years to report back. The Conservative GE manifesto has been 4 years in the making, the government look very ill prepared in comparison.
85. It is all Labour have left. Lying wasn’t working, so now instead of lying there are no figures to argue about, Labour have taken the ball home. Instead of arguing about figures Brown is trying to change the debate to one about intent not specific actions. A campaign about Labour investment (they won’t) versus Tory cuts (they will as will whoever wins).
The mere fact that Labour are reduced to taking such a position is reason enough for them to be booted out at the next general election. They are the worst UK government in a very very long time.
82 - Exactly. If painful cits are coming, who is going to feel the pain? There must be some working assumptions otherwise the Tories will not be able to do anything for years when they take power.
It’s quite simple really - like the government the Tories know that they are going to have to make very unpopular choices and like the government they are avoiding telling us what these choices are going to be. It’s politics and it is what all politicians do. To pretend that the Tories are any different is just ridiculous.
82 - I’m just wondering how long it will be before you claim that the Conservative Party is a CIA front organization.
86 - I would certainly concede that.
Has Jon Craig of Sky News had an accident with a sunbed machine?
88 - from the link
“Experience in other countries suggests that a focus on expenditure cuts, rather than revenue raising, is associated with more successful consolidations,” it said.”
Comments Jon?
This “debate” on honesty is descending into farce.
Simple question for the Gordo cheerleaders. Which of these answers to the question “will there be reduced spending after the next election?” is honest?
a. Yes
b. No
Start from there…
93 - Southam Observer in total agreement with Jonathan shocker!
David Cameron has today accused Gordon Brown and the Labour government of dishonesty with the revelation that the next government spending review will not take place until 2011. The cat was most certainly let out of the bag when Lord Mandelson gave an interview today on radio suggesting that there was no need to review government finances until the economy had turned.
The Conservative party has come under severe attack from the UK government for suggesting that a 10% cut across the board was required to rein in public service spending. However, when asked to confirm UK government spending plans for the future Gordon Brown was unable to come up with a figure while today he is expected to highlight areas of interest to the public which will receive increased investment in the short to medium term. There is no doubt that public service finance will be one of the major areas of contention as we approach the next general election with the public demanding extra finance for the NHS and other vital areas of the public sector.
However, when you consider that UK national debt is now well over £1 trillion there is very little scope for the UK government to work within.
http://financialadvice.co.uk/news/11/tax/11141/Government-accused-of-dishonesty-over-UK-spending-cuts.html
Plato, I think the media want them to preannounce to them rather than announce to Parliament. They want the scoop and they want announcements which fit the news cycle.
Why would the media want to kill the golden goose? They may not be able to resist making a comment that causes embarrassment - or about a week or so.
99 - Tory herd in stomping over all attempts at questioning Tories shocker.
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/06/libdem-ppc-defects-to-labour.html
So to summarise the current Conservative line it is: the government is dishonest, we think it should be honest, but because the government is dishonest, we won’t be honest either.
Excellent.
104 Spot on.
84. I think the Tories want to avoid detail for three reasons: one is that when you arent in government it is not easy to point to specirfic programmes without the Government being able to either steal your idea or smack it down as dangerous because of a. b or c; secondly, pre-announcing cuts in specific areas only alienates interest groups and reduces your votes, especially if, as is likely, cuts are going to fall in most departments. Thirdly, I think they just don’ know yet quite how deep or wide-ranging the cuts will need to be.
Is that cynical of them? Yes, but it is also sensible. They have made clear the direction of travel, why should they put up hostages to fortune? Labour have made their task an awful lot easier by giving them cover through postponing the CSR until after the election.
105 - Jonathan in total agreement with Southam Observer shocker!
It’s more the case of the Tories can’t actually be accurate - rather than honest - if the Government is going to lie and hide things all the time.
82 But it is pointless to ask the Opposition what they would cut in detail [[other than the usual red tape default] if they don’t know how much is being spent and where.
If HMG allocated an extra £40bn to the NHS to make it seem like a star service awash with MRI scanners and 24hr waiting times then the Opposition could argue that this was unreasonable when compared with the constraints other services and tax income generated by the bit of the economy that creates money rather than simply spending it.
Without the basic data, it is impossible for the Opposition to come up with any sort of plan other than a crude guess. That would be useless as a manifesto point - the voter couldn’t base a decision on a finger-in-the-air.
Labour have a vanishingly small chance of a hung Parliament and zero chance of retaining HMG status. All they are doing now is hiding the scale of the mess in a pretty cack-handed way.
I’d be very surprised if they can maintain this position for long [again].
18.”In case you missed it, here was the first installment of the giant ICM/BBC Scotland poll, published yesterday afternoon:”
Hardly a giant poll. What about the details of yesterdays poll suggesting that most think that the NHS has flatlined under devolution, or their views on how education have faired?
C’mon, its only a giant poll because its dealing with your favourite topic.
Word of warning, spend more time concentrating on the issues that most Scots worry most about, the NHS and education would be a good start. This naval gazing obsession is going to bite us all on the bahookie if we don’t start concentrating on what matters most in the here and now.
Nationalists of all stripes have a treat in store - the IPPR is doing an “Englishness” poll of MPs, with the questions IMO loaded to the assumption that there is a problem - e.g. we’re asked to choose from a list of ways to strengthen English devolution, with no explicit option “there is no need to do so” (though there’s a generic ‘none of these’). Since the responses are likely to be biased to MPs who think that there is indeed a problem, it’s likely to produce one of those “MPs call for…” stories which don’t turn out to be very solidly-based.
#35 Casino Royale
Why do you assume that the devolutionists would automatically come down on the side of the Unionist status quo in the straight fight between Union and independence? You’ve already demonstrated that a majority of Scots don’t have any significant attachment to the notion of Britishness….
worth having a look at Toenails blog. The content is wild, but see how many of the comments contain “liar” for a less PBcentric view of the state of the parties.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2009/06/riots_on_the_st.html
204 We haven’t reached a debate about debating honesty.
We are still debating hypocrisy.
As I’ve posted before, the real tragedy about the spending debate is that the government is not doing the preparation work now, when it needs to be done, in readiness for implementation starting in 2010-2011.
As a result of this negligence, the cuts when they do happen will have to be hurried, and that means they will be more damaging than they needed to be. For example, there should be a massive effort underway now to identify wasteful box-ticking, unnecessary reporting, and over-detailed targets, which are spread so widely around government. But Labour are doing almost nothing to make the civil service and local authorities ready for the increased efficiency demands which will inevitably be imposed, under whatever government is in power. Indeed, they are doing the reverse - imposing more nonsense.
The result is that whole programmes, including some worthwhile ones, will have to be cut, because that is quicker than squeezing efficiency out of a large range of widely-spread improvements.
opps 112 = one too many ‘debating’.
107 There is some cognitive dissonance on pb.com. On the last thread people wanted an alternative view. Here it seems there is a move to establish the Democratic Republic of Pb.com where anyone who even questions Kim Jong Dave gets instantly attacked.
104. And to summarise the Labour line, “it is dishonest of the Tories not to provide detailed extrapolations of figures we have declined to produce”
Genius. Worth a 4th term…
104. Forget the Tories versus Labour bit.
If party A is responsible for forecasting and budgeting and refuses to do so how can party B say what they would do without the figures that party A is meant to produce?
I would like both parties to be straightforward, but if party A are going to play silly buggers I can see why party B would try to avoid the trap that is being set.
110 - From the survey it looked like over 70% of Scots had some attachement to the notion of Britishness and that this combined figure was pretty cose to the number of Scots that opposed outright independence. Most interestingly, all the figures seem to have changed very little since the SNP took over in Scotland.
115 Jonathan
I like ‘Kim Jong Dave’!
However - the problem is not that you are questioning him, but accusing him of dishonesty. A very different matter.
The U.S. Supreme Court just overturned Sonia Sotomayor’s controversial lower court decision to deny a promotion to white firefighters in Connecticut:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/ap_on_re_us/us_supreme_court_firefighters_lawsuit
This will surely be thrown in her face during confirmation hearings set to begin in July.
There are incumbancy advantages for any Government in a democracy. There are also disadvantages.
One of those disadvantages is the onus on the Government to produce detailed tax and spend figures on a regular basis. When the Government does that it will be well placed to attack the tories for lack of detail. Until such time the focus will be on Government.
Such is life.
115- You’re just lucky that the PB gulag is still under construction and not yet accepting prisoners.
107 - but you’re not offering an alternative view, and the truth is that - on this - you can’t. Brown is lying - everyone knows he’s lying. But in order to skirt around this you just keep dragging up this tired old argument that the Tories should create a detailed budget a year before an election, and when the government is committed to hide and lie about the figures they’ll have to base it on. You’re ignoring the big, big picture to harp on and on about a little mark on the floor.
116 - The Labour Government is bankrupt, devoid of authority and deserves no-one’s support. But that does not let the Tories off, especially when they are specifically calling for honesty.
It will work as an electoral tactic, but the idea that the Tories have not thought about what they want to cut and why is not a credible one. They know what areas they want to target and they also know they do not want to tell the electorate. In other words, they do not want to be honest with us.
118. SO - yes exactly; the shares favouring independence and those expressing no attachment to British identity are almost the same.
But of course Scottish Nationalism isn’t based on ‘ethnic’ but ‘civic’ notions
“Here it seems there is a move to establish the Democratic Republic of Pb.com”
As opposed to Labour’s plans to introduce a more intrusive ID card system than the DPRK itself?
104 & 105 You two lovebirds should just get a room together.
119 It is Dave who has raised the issue of honesty. It’s not my fault if he demonstrably fails to live up to his own standards.
115 An alternative view is fine when argued sensibly.
Saying that the Opposition should publish all their plans in detail without any data, so HMG can use it against them, whilst postponing the publication of data that is only known to them is hardly reasonable.
124. Wrong. The tories have already announced that only 3 spending areas will be ring-fenced. And they stated which ones (health, education, overseas development). So if you can’t work out which ones will be affected you must be really dim.
Gordon on R5 now
120 - But she will still be confirmed.
I attended a Supeme Court session once. It was fascinating. Clarence Thomas was a puzzle though.
124. I presume SO that you don’t expect the Tories to produce full costing down to the last penny of how much they would cut before the election?
How much detail, therefore, do you think they should go into? Do you think they should be giving broad percentage figures or naming specific programmes they want to cut?
131 - is he taking public questions?
134. he’s in the House of Commons.
I really do think the Government should issue a health warning. How many people are they going to Blind with those huge noses that keep on growing! I mean they are as Lethal as the bloke in terminator 2 who stabs people in the eye!
128. Oh really? Perhaps Dave secretly admires the duplicitous tactics of the biggest hypocrite in British politics, James Gordon Brown.
134 - He’s at the House of Commons it’s on BBC parliament/news, sky news
128 Jonathan - It seems you can’t tell the difference between dishonesty, and prudently waiting for the full facts before committing to detailed policies.
Anyway - I’ve got work to do, so I’ll stop banging my head against a brick wall!
135 - then no, I guess
130 - It’s not the which that is important, it is the how.
Does ring-fencing eduction and health mean that current and future employee pension arrangements will not be altered by an incoming Tory government?
134 Tractors is in the HoC reading out fantasy numbers. I doubt he’ll answer any questions.
132- No doubt that she will. This is just an embarrassment for her (not such a big deal) but could have more lasting consequences for Obama, since Supreme Court nominations are routinely used to brand presidents long after the appointments have been made.
Well MPs are the public representatives, so maybe!
Oh no - broadband for all yet again - tax on ISPs/phone users.
141 SO
That’s an easy one to answer. (a) Current - Yes (b) Future - No
I have a suspicion that even Brown has worked out at this point that the investment vs cuts argument is a loser for him.
That may be why Mandelson on Today, as well as trying to justify the postponement of the spending review by saying it was all speculation anyway, wouldn’t commit to future spending.
Is this the government laying the groundwork for a retreat from the basic ‘investment vs cuts’ line off attack, now that Brown has realized he’s on the wrong side of another of his dividing lines?
129 I have asked for no details. If Dave knows enough to say that he will protect health budgets. He knows enough to explain where the cuts will fall. When it suits him he is quite happy to share it, e.g. ID cards. To my knowledge I have never seen Dave try to win the argument for a potential vote losing policy. Correct me if I am wrong.
Without doubt, Dave should be forced to answer some specific questions before the election. For example, he should tell us whether public sector final salary pensions are safe under the Tories. IMO he would need a specific mandate at the general election to carry out such a policy. If it’s the right thing to do, what has he to fear from trying to win the argument.
As a single matter of detail, I would like to know whether his commitment to NHS spending means de facto that all those health pensions are protected.
133 - I think that he should be warning that certain types of government spending are going to be reviewed and he should state what these are. As Jonathan says if the Tories are planning to review public pension arranagements they should be told prior to an election.
110. He like others view this through the view from London , they are unable to comprehend that the figures mean most people count themselves as Scottish but will add British after, think the 13% who count themselves more British escaped them. As ever they manipulate the numbers to meet their London centric view.
132 - Is it true that Thomas never asks questions?
1.5m new skilled jobs - really - check out these stats
145 - where’s my free computer? I distinctly remember being promised a free computer last year and I never got it…
141. No. Those are not part of the departmental operating budgets that count towards spending.
Anyway, those pensions - for all public workers - will have to be sorted. We can’t afford them.
146 - And has Dave said this? Has he told trainee teachers, doctrs and nurses that their pension arrangements will or even just could be different to those of their colleagues? If you know it is Tory policy, where is this stated?
146 Thanks Richard, at least one question is answered. So let’s look forward to some recruitment problems for nurses then.
154 - Where has Dave said this?
It is an announcement of re-announcements.
Darling looks more like this than ever!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_F4yinVt5IS8/SD8wNeej3rI/AAAAAAAAEQ4/hnM3B0TC9S4/s1600/1Alistair+Darling.jpg
151 - He did not say a thing at the session I went to.
154 A perfectly arguable case. But let’s have the debate before the election, not afterwards.
151- Rarely but not never.
Pretty much all I know about the sessions of the Supreme Court I got from Nina Totenburg
Oh FFS video game ratings!!!
Good News.
Francis Maude to stand down.
Bad News.
From second job.
http://www.mad.co.uk/Main/News/Articlex/6f2b562a8ffb47ca921e2854b41781fd/Maude-to-step-down-as-Mission-chairman.html
He’s staying in the Shadow Cabinet.
157
The only question he will not answer is where the money is coming from
154 A perfectly arguable case. But let’s have the debate before the election, not afterwards…
Nobody cared when you posted that the first time, Tim.
163 Repetition - you made that post this morning. It was boring then. How’s the article going?
Oh a smaller second chamber - what so they can’t throw out HMG legislation then.
148. Cameron argued against 42 days when it was still a popular policy and has been arguing against ID cards when it was popular.
149. I think he has done that in broad terms by saying that health and overseas aid are ring-fenced and everything else isn’t. He has also talked about advertising and quangos. I agree that he needs to give more meat on direction of travel and i think that will happen before the election as people will ask them about things like pensions.
Looks like it’s not a slam dunk for Labour in Norwich North…
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3724258/bad-signs-in-norwich-north-for-labour.thtml
146 Well good luck getting young people to become nurses.
156. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23593402-details/Cameron:+Time+to+slash+public+sector+pensions/article.do
Note that he wants to do it over time. Though with the deteriorating national finances that time is getting shorter - by necessity.
165 - so make Gordon hold the spending review before then.
Fraser Nelson at the Coffee House Blog - Cameron is taking the fight to Brown
“Here is my top half dozen points from Cameron’s angry, feisty, Brown’s-a-liar press conference today.”
What is the basis for this announcement, other than Brown desperate trashing relaunch no. 276? Whatever happened to the convention of revealing new policy for the year ahead in the Queen’s speech?
160 - All I remember from his confirmation hearings is that his legal qualifications were somewhat underwhelming and his wife is white.
118. I wouldn’t be quite so confident that constitutional preferences in Scotland have a one-for-one relationship with national identity in Scotland, where the national identity preference is overwhelmingly Scottish - as even this poll shows. That is certainly a significant difference from just 10, to perhaps just 20 years ago.
Just nod, love it!!
166/7 Which article Ed?
I realise that the Conservative posters on here are happy that Dave has bottled on clearing out his Shadow Cabinet.
The fact that you are embarrassed about it doesn’t make it a non story.
Love it “just nod”.
179 tim, I believe MS offered you the opportunity to write an article on Shadow Cabinet expenses earlier today for consideration. Presumably you’ve bottled it.
161- Oh no, not Nina Totenberg! This is the same woman who believed Nancy Pelosi’s panicked and rambling protestations that she didn’t know about torture back in the early Bush administration, even though it’s clear she did know. Nina Totenberg and the Democratic establishment: two peas in a pod.
178: indeed. Utter brownslap. Cameron is being unkind to dumb animals again, Cooper one side of him and Darling the other looking sheep in a slaughterhouse lorry.
174 - Thanks ChristinaD.
Fraser Nelson accuses Cameron of Lying.
6. MOVING IN WITH OSBORNE Q: Do you recognise reports that you plan to
share a back office with Osborne? A: “There is not a shred or ounce of complacency in me or our top team… There is no time being spent on thinking who would sit where and, frankly, there won’t be.” I first raised this in my News of the World column yesterday, and I can tell you Cameron speaks with forked tongue when he says no one is thinking about sitting arrangements. He has started negotiations with the civil service, this takes up quite a bit of time. But the fact that such negotiations are taking place runs the risk of making him look complacent. The Tories are very sensitive about this, so Cameron denies what’s going on. He should think of a more honest way of dealing with this question, because it’ll come up again.
174 Interesting comment re. tax credits. It seems that middle class families with kids are second in line for a dose of Cameron pain after the civil service. Interesting priority.
171. Since when did young people give a stuff about pensions?
Not watching Gordo, but BBC website first review leads with,
“Gordon Brown is setting out his policy plans for the next year - including docking the benefits of the young unemployed who refuse a job offer.”
I thought that was already in place thanks to Purnell “reforms”? Except you had to be really really awkward and you lost like a tenner.
bbc news24 currently showing feed from parliament Cameron giving Brown another bashing !
I can’t believe Gordon is digging the investment/cuts hole - he is barking.
Tough decisions on keeping GP’s surgeries open in the evening. It’s the ‘Cones Hotline’ all over again. Dying days.
185 - Its always been Camerons policy to redistribute that money to wealthy married couples.
182 - Ah yes - what did Nancy know and when did she know it? Did she ever manage to get out of that?
128 - I see, Gordon lies, gets caught and yet Cameron is in the wrong??
scratches head in bemusement
I think you will find plenty of people other than tories think Labour are not being honest.
Yet again Gordon picks a fight he cannot win
Just turned it on, and I see we are getting the going to spend crazy amount of money to create x hundred thousand new jobs AGAIN, figures plucked out of thin air as usual I would guess.
Gordon Brown: ”We will not make the mistake of pre-announcing public spending cuts.”
Neither will we Gordon.
Labour until very recently was insisting people still supported ID cards.
Cameron has been arguing against them for a lot longer than that.
If ID cards are as popular as Labour has often insisted, Cameron’s position should be costing him votes.
185 - And middle income pensioners, who may well see their winter fuel allowance reduced or cut.
If what our Tory friends on here are saying is correct, what we should now assume is that if Dave does not explicitly rule something out there is a fair chance that it is under active consideration.
What is he on? Ideologically against growth and investment??
God looking at the BBC ticker “highlights” of Gordo great vision, I am getting this strong sense of deja vu!
176- Clarence Thomas attended Yale Law School, the most exclusive law school in the country. He was also an assistant state attorney general, counsel to a major corporation, and a federal appeals court judge. I’m not sure how that makes his legal qualifications “underwhelming.”
the argument here seems to be about puppies. The Government has a number of puppies that it no longer has the money to feed. In order to ensure that the majority of puppies survive rather than starve to death slowly they are going to have to kill some puppies. However, they are saying that the puppies are fine and that the Conservatives will kill more puppies than them and refuse to admit that any puppies will die under Labour.
Then Labour supporters say that The Tories should say which puppies they will kill if they had the power. The reason they are saying this is to put the focus on those sad condemned puppies eyes up until the next election. It makes no political sense for the tories to stand over a puppy with a big axe for 12 months as that does not win you votes. And they hope that by saying Tories and “puppy killing” as much as possible people won’t vote for them as no one wants puppy blood on their hands.
fundamentally though puppies are going to die, it’s just a question of when, how and how many. whatever happens this is turning into a grizzly drawn out affair rather than a quick clean execution. we need an election sooner rather than later.
>> Its always been Camerons policy to redistribute that money to wealthy married couples
You mean he’s giving them their own money back?
“if Dave does not explicitly rule something out there is a fair chance that it is under active consideration.”
Labour explicitly ruled out compulsory ID cards in its 2005 manifesto.
Only it forgot to add, “except in the case of people working at Manchester airport. Then you won’t get a job if you don’t have one.”
197 No one wants to lose the candy they have been given - but those who can afford to do without know it’s fair when money is tight.
To try to pretend that everyone who Labour has splashed with cash would vote Labour as nasty Tories would reallocate or stop it is totally misinformed.
148 - You overlook one basic point. At present the discussion between Labour and the Conservatives is about the direction of travel. Labour claims to be intending to spend more while both Labour and the Conservatives agree that the Conservatives will cut.
Before you can have a meaningful discussion about where the axe will fall, you must first decide whether the axe should fall at all and if so how hard. We are at this stage of preliminary debate.
You want to move onto the next conversation before the first one has been had. While Government ministers are lying about their own intentions, it would not just be bad tactics for the Conservatives to go into specific detail, it would confuse the public. Until the public has been properly informed on the debate about whether cuts are needed and if so why, they will not be able to form a sensible view about what to prioritise.
You airily want to brush the Prime Minister’s lie under the carpet, because it is embarrassing. But it is so fundamental, discussion about what cuts are needed cannot begin to take place until the Government is forced to be honest about its own plans.
197 Cameron wants to claim post election that he won a mandate for “painful cuts”, but to do so without putting the kind of flesh on his plans that would cost him votes.
It is in the interest of us all to make sure he doesn’t have such wriggle room. If he is going to cut, he should have cajones to say what and let us vote accordingly.
Meanwhile he claims he is honest. You couldn’t make it up.
148 / 149 - I think we can see the new tactic…
Curious as to where the tories have said anything about these pensions … and why just NHS pensions (Jon).???
Is it coz it sounds like nasty tories???
171 She would be no worse off than her counterpart in a private sector occupation.
I’m pretty sure the Conservatives have said that current pension arrangements will not apply to new public sector employees.
In all likelihood, existing public sector workers will have to contribute more of their income towards final salary schemes. A number of local authorities now require this, and I expect it will become universal throughout the public sector.
150.
Ah I see. When looking at a straight constitutional bunfight, it is extremely clear a large number of devolutionists clearly switch to independence. And who knows, maybe some of those devolutionists might consider themselves even just a wee bit British. as opposed to a big bit British.
197. Possibly, but even if departmental spending is cut by 10% that does mean that 90% will remain.
re the Treason debate. Rod in what way was the Treason Act 1351 amended in 1945 - I can find no evidence of it in the Staute Law database. The relevant bit is surely
or if a Man do levy War against our Lord the King in his Realm, or be adherent to the King’s Enemies in his Realm, giving to them Aid and Comfort in the Realm, or elsewhere, and thereof be [X5 probably] attainted of open Deed by [X6 the People] of their Condition
“Probably” could be read as “proveably” and “the people” as “people”
HAHAHAHA ‘rotting Britain under Thatcher and Major’ ‘ruined again by the Tories’
Good grief.
201
And because of Brown’s incompetence in Puppy care, the International pet shops are not extending the availability of kibble, thus more Puppies will die under Labour than under the Tories
163 - forgot you posted that earlier today?
191.
Tim, You don’t know what you are talking about. Leave the junior school immediately, go back to nursey school and start again.
204 - So why cut IHT?
And if everyone will think it’s fair, why not tell them you are going to do it?
I actually think it is the fairest thing to do and it would make me think better of the Tories than I do now. But my guess is that a lot of middle income Brits will not necessarily agre with me. And I think Dave thinks this too.
I don’t remember Obama laying out the specifics of his budget changes, and where he was going to cut, in the run up to the election, he said he couldn’t until he had been through the budget line by line. Seems a very sensible approach to me, especially as we known Brown books are as dodgy as they come (the sort Enron would be proud of).
200 - If I remember correctly, the ABA rating on Thomas hovered between ‘qualified’ and ‘not qualified’. He had only recently (a year or thereabouts) been made a federal judge.
206 Why should Cameron do what you want him to do? He won’t get your vote in any case.
So long as his opponent remains as inept as he is, his strategy is working perfectly.
206 - but the fact is, the only people calling for him to make specific pledges now - a year before the election and on the same day the government has decided to hide its own spending figures until after said election - are people like you who weren’t going to vote for him anyway.
206. And you think he is going to take your advice? The vermin disgraced group of chancers we have in charge right now will merely misrepresent any concrete plans they make.
Look at the fuss they made when Andrew Langsley read the numbers out of the budget book, you would have thought Labour had uncovered plans by David Cameron to march into the Rhineland.
171 - well they could perhaps get in doctors / nurses from developing countries and leave them short?
Oh wait, Labour did that already …….
197 - Something tells me that both SO and Jonathan have vested interests in public sector pensions given that they’ve bought them up multiple times today.
Given the amount of time they spend on here and so the amount of unproductive time they have on their hands, I think it must be fair to assume that they represent some of the “essential” public sector middle management grades such as Equality Officers, Liaison wasters or 5 a day tosspots.
No wonder they’re worried. Not just about their pensions but about their very jobs. If there were any sense in public sector spending post-2010 such roles would be the first to go.
From what I can see of Gordon’s big vision, NPMP and friends are going to have plenty of opportunity to find themselves a 2nd and 3rd job to pass the time in the next year!
I notice Royal Mail privatisation has been ditched as well!
202 - Wealthy Married People without Children will be better off, as will wealthy Married people with children.
Cameron guarantees that.
208 - Then off she’ll go to the private sector where she will not have to shovel people’s s**t and do various other unpleasant tasks. That leaves us with a major recruiting problem or - more likely - just fewer frontline NHS staff.
221. Has he explicitly ruled it out?
It is just me or is the “all under 25’s to get given a job or training” a desperate attempt to try and get as many of them off the unemployment numbers before the election?
216 Because it isn’t fair due to property prices on those like me who have owned their home for a long time and will be forced to give most of it away to HMG, I intend to give mine to charity as I have no close relatives.
The Oppositions plan is to fund this entirely via non-doms - nothing to do with the CSR etc.
219 He should do it, because it is a democratic. Say what you are going to do, argue your case, win a mandate, do it.
Cameron’s current strategy:
Make it a personal issue about Brown, say as little as possible about own plans, hope no one notices.
Mention “pain” a lot without saying anything specific enough to cost you a single vote. Post election, do what he likes claiming mandate for painful cuts.
I suspect he will get away with it, but that does not make it right. But I can see why you love it.
225 - you make it sound as if Cameron is giving them something - in reality he’s letting them keep their own money.
No-one is going to take any notice of Bercow because he’s a ridiculous little twerp.
219, 220 - I have said it’s an electoral tactic that is bund to work. But let’s cut al the rubbish about honesty, shall we? Cameron is a politician like any other and do and say what is necessary to gain and then to hold on to power. If he really were an honest and shnung light he would be telling nurses, teachers, doctors, soldiers etc that their pensions were up for review and that their remuneration packages may well be significantly affected as a result. But he won’t because he isn’t.
“He said the government would spend £1bn to create 100,000 jobs for young people and another 50,000 in areas of high unemployment.”
What exactly is the government going to get these people doing? More lackies on the public payroll me thinks!
230 - While the case for cuts needs to be made (because the Government is lying about what is needed), going into detail is not just a tactical mistake, it is wrong. The debate about how logically follows the debate about whether. This is so obvious, I can’t believe that you’re seriously trying to argue the opposite.
185 - i’m curious, you think the poor should be hit?
Maybe….. by getting rid of a 10p tax rate
229 - I’ll take it Plato - I’m my favourite charity
226 When private sector employees are losing their jobs hand over fist, and suffering wage cuts and freezes, it’s not likely that people will be leaving the public sector to try and work there.
Your nurse wouldn’t get a final salary pension in the private sector.
236 Done
228
Directed Labour?
re 185 and Jonathan why not too? Why on earth should a couple earning £50k+ get handouts from the state? And why should Bernie Ecclestone and Max Moseley get a winter fuel allowance?
237 A perfectly arguable case. Please make it before the election, not afterwards.
Tim you go on time and time again re Cameron not changing the Shadow Cabinet but:-
1. Ignore the fact that Brown did not initiate most of the many recent changes to the Cabinet. They were mainly forced upon him when his colleagues choose not to continue working with him.
2. Brown has chosen to allow Darling, Balls, Straw etc to remain in the cabinet despite their poor expenses/tax avoidance records.
3. Cameron obviously would not choose to change the Shadow Cabinet when you think it is appropriate but may well choose to make some changes in good time for a GE.
231 - Its na choice.
Cameron will choose to cut the income of a nurse and a policeman who have children,through cuts in tax credits and will at the same time increase the income of a wealthy couple without children so long as they are married.
Brown has no idea how this is coming across - as a floating voter his crude soldiers, nurses, teachers tactic is pathetic.
I voted for Tony but Brown is someone who would never and will never get my vote.
So if the media is to be believed, there we have it, the Labour election manifesto,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8124818.stm
Change anybodies vote?
223 - Aren’t Tories delightful? For what it’s worth, my guess is that I earn a lot more than you, pay a lot more tax than you and employ many more people than you. Personally, I have no doubt a Tory government would be good for me as I will probably end up paying less tax, and will no longer be liable for IHT on my parents’ very substantial North London house, while my kids will not be liable for it on our house in leafy, middle England Warwickshire.
However, I believe that it is my family’s interests that we get the best frontline NHS staff, teachers, police forces and other public servants. I believe that only the state can ensure this. And that way I can be more confident of the treatment we will get in hospital and how my kids and their kids (and my employees’ kids) will be educated etc. I know Tories just do not get this, but there you go.
240 Don’t you think that couple should be able to make their own minds up before the election? I suspect said couple with childcare costs might want to know before they cast their vote.
Good question Mr Sharma. Gordon can’t answer.
As an aside Brown looks wrecked, a truly unwell person. How can those who surround him allow the man to suffer in this way?
206. I’ll tell you what you couldn’t make up Jonathan, your blind loyalty to a dying party and its leader.
241 - It’s not a case or a debating point, Jonathan. It’s a fact.
You need to make your case given that yours is the one that costs the taxpayers more money than is affordable.
Why should public sector employees get more generous pension provision than the taxpayers who pay their salaries?
Especially in an environment such as now where a) they can rightly be said to no longer be poorly paid in relation to the private sector and b) private sector employees are rightly at risk of losing not just their pension values but also their very incomes.
237 - We will not be in a recession forever.
tim June 29th, 2009 at 4:19 pm “Cameron will choose to cut the income of a nurse and a policeman who have children,through cuts in tax credits and will at the same time increase the income of a wealthy couple without children so long as they are married.”
timsmearbot, you presumably think he would eat their babies as well?
252 - who knows; Brown said he had abolished boom and bust, but considering he’s wrong on pretty much everything, he may have just abolished the boom…
253
It’s a well known fact that tories eat babies
244. Yes it’s all remarkably crude, isn’t it? Actually it seems to be well into self-parody territory.
Please someone bring the curtain down on this tired, pathetic act…NEXT
I bet they said that Japan wouldn’t be in recession forever, but they have now had 10 years of bugger all growth, stagnant house prices, etc, and still no signs of an upturn.
At Last. A labour MP asks a proper question. Step forward Mr Kilfoyle.
238 - when can I come over and pick out the curtains?
251 - I think soldiers should get a decent jobs package because they risk their lives for us. I think nurses and doctors should too because they save lives. I have no problem with policement or teachers getting good packages because I want the very best people possible educating our kids and looking after our streets. If people choose not to become public servants that is their choice, but why then complain at the packages such public servants receive?
255 - particularly fried on toast with a poached egg on top….
218- Take it from an American lawyer who is decidedly NOT a member of the ABA: the ABA is a liberal special interest group. They are neither unbiased nor non-partisan. The ABA is not analogous to integrated state bar associations, which do actually represent all lawyers within their jurisdictions and are not involved in partisan politics.
243 And what is wrong with being childless and productive tax-payers?
No education or health costs, no parental/maternity leave… sounds like a very good deal for those who don’t want or can’t have kids.
246 My own view is that when so much money has been redistributed from the private to the public sector over the past few years, and when private sector employees are now experiencing such pain, it’s only right that the public sector should bear its share of that pain.
You and Jonathan are like two people losing a game of poker and then complaining that the winner isn’t showing you his hand.
263 - Much more environmentally sound as well.
252 - it all depends on how you define ‘forever’; if you take the same liberties with that word that Brown has done to totally debase the meaning of the word ‘investment’ then your statement may well be incorrect
260 “If people choose not to become public servants that is their choice, but why then complain at the packages such public servants receive?”
Perhaps our MPs should have tried that line of argument a few weeks ago.
263 -Its not a question of being productive or having children its a question of marriage.
A policeman and a nurse will be worse off so that David Cameron gets an extra £20 per week to persuade him to stay married.
“Gordon Brown’s government relaunch was overshadowed by Cabinet disarray today …”
Relaunch? well I suppose it’s Monday, and these days every Monday is a relauch for Brown
260…public servants? what ever does that mean?
267 - The policeman and nurse can marry if they so wish. What do you have against marriage?
Missed the statement. Anybody have it and/or Cameron’s response?
246 - Oh the eternal big swinging dick bit on pb.com. Lovely.
I’m sure you do employ more people than me. After all, there are plenty of public sector/quango roles with excessive salaries and empire building levels of staff.
I work very happily and very rewardingly for and by myself. As for paying tax in the UK, I happily stopped doing that a few years back as I don’t want Gordon to waste what I earn.
Your belief in the State as some bountiful source of well-being is naive in the extreme and given your willful refusal to ever admit that the current excessive government spending levels are unsustainable and unnecessary merely proves you to be - on a non-personal level given what you’ve laid out - financially illiterate.
Ho ho ho,
I think the BBC have put up a intensionally funny picture of the Great Leader,
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45987000/jpg/_45987359_browngrab226bbc.jpg
It makes him look as if he is literally talking to a near empty house, and no sign of his cabinet backing him up.
266 - I am not sure it is fair to compare a soldier risking his life in Afghanistan with an MP making a claim for moat cleaning. But then I am not a Tory.
260 And who do you think pays for all of your worthy recipients?
People like me who own a small business, employ people and pay 50% of our hard work to HMRC.
Get a grip. I am reminded of the Hitch Hikers Guide on the A and B arks, the A ark is full of people like you, the B ark is full of hair-dressers.
Hair-dressers run small businesses. Civil servants eat their profits.
270 - They may already be married.
They will lose out through their loss of tax credits if they have children.
260 - “If people choose not to become public servants that is their choice, but why then complain at the packages such public servants receive?”
Because THEY ARE PAYING FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!
257. They were right - Japan hasn’t been in recession forever. The economy grew on average by 1.3% from 1991-2008.
House and stock prices have indeed never recovered their bubble peaks, however…
273 - Gordy No Mates…
252: Recession no..a great turgid mass of debt…we’ll be in that for a long, long time.
272 You are Lord Ashcroft and I claim my £5.
276 - Replace “will” with “might” and your point is a bit better. If they are already married, they will presumably also benefit from the allowance. Do you object to rich people getting the basic state pension? Is Labour going to means test benefits?
O/T History might be in the making at Wimbledon.
274 or indeed a massage chair, £25k for security or even £9k for a TV.
Choose your weapons carefully as they are likely to detonate when you press Submit Comment.
275. Erm, Plato, that was a ruse by the population to get rid of all the hairdressers/telephone sanitisers/etc on the B ark. There were no other arks.
283, to what do you refer?
282 Whatever you believe. Surely the point is, if the Tories today have a policy to fiddle around with Tax credits or remove public sector pensions, they should share it with the electorate before the election.
IMO if they don’t they will have no mandate for the policy after it.
285 - And remember, the people of Golgafrincham were wiped out by a disease caught from an unsanitised telephone.
278 - I didn’t make my point very clearly.
I know that technically hasn’t been in recession for 10 years straight, but a) it has been in and out of recession and ask the people, what do they think, good times returned?
Their houses haven’t increased in value (and that is what a lot of people in the UK have relied on ), their stock prices haven’t recovered, pension funds in trouble, etc.
I am not saying the UK is going the same way, but you ask somebody from Japan about “not in recession forever” as in the past 10 years and the looking to the future and I think the opinion of the economic situation will be very very negative.
272 - Id, please don’t tell me you live abroad. How beautiful. Could it be because you think there are too many immigrants in the UK?
I too work in the private sector and my response to you was dictated by your accusations about me. Heat and kitchens and all that.
As someone who works in the private sector I am under no illusion about the state as a source of never-ending bounty. My interest is in the state as a guarantor of minimum standards of quality, which is completely different. I have no problem in paying tax so that we pay our teachers, nurses, doctors, policemen, soldiers etc well. But that does not mean that I think that state should spend endlessly or without limit. As I say, the state’s role should be to oversee service provision so that it is done in our interests not in the interests of the service providers. And I am all for cuts where they are possible. We can do without Trident, for example; while ID cards are a joke and can be scrapped too.
163
Tim
Have you morphed ito something akin to Sky Breaking news?. You posted this on the previous thread at 1.58pm
438.Good news for the Tories.
Trougher Maude to step down.
Bad news for the Tories.
From all his jobs except the Shadow Cabinet.
http://www.mad.co.uk/Main/News/Articlex/6f2b562a8ffb47ca921e2854b41781fd/Maude-to-step-down-as-Mission-chairman.html
by tim June 29th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
and this on the current thread at 3.44pm.. almost word for word.
163.Good News.
Francis Maude to stand down.
Bad News.
From second job.
http://www.mad.co.uk/Main/News/Articlex/6f2b562a8ffb47ca921e2854b41781fd/Maude-to-step-down-as-Mission-chairman.html
He’s staying in the Shadow Cabinet.
by tim June 29th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
282 - Correct yes.
An unmarried policeman and a nurse with children WILL be worse off and David Cameron WILL be better off.
A married policeman and a nurse with children MAY be worse off and David Cameron WILL be better off
287 - I refer the gentleman to the point I made to him at 234, which he ignored then and I suspect he will ignore again now.
286 - roof time, I think.
274 Rather a cheap comment.
If I understand you correctly, then the entire burden of coping with this recession, and righting the budget deficit, should be borne by private sector employees, because they could have chosen to work in the public sector, but decided not to.
Tough reprimand for PM leaking his statement from the Speaker.
Nope.
Not even mentioned.
What a surprise.
Apologies to Plato and David at 166/7 I hadnt scrolled down that far when I saw Tim’s repetitive post.
281 - That actually made me laugh, Jonathan. Nice one. I wish. If I were, despite your frequent obnoxiousness, I’d happily give you that fiver just for the fun of it.
285 - and would Gordon be the dish of the day in the Restaurant at the edge of the world?
243.
Average salary for a policeman, sergeant and below £35,000, and the average for a nurse is about £23,000. Why should a couple on a combined income of £58,000 need tax credits?
Wouldnt they rather just keep a bit more of the £10,000 in income tax and £5,000 in national insurance?
292 - You need to learn the difference between will and might. The lesson still doesn’t seem to be sinking in.
Are you saying that you object to rich people getting the basic state pension and that Labour will means test all benefits? If so, that’s very big news indeed.
289. Actually Japan’s growth performance is quite remarkable, given the appalling mess the banking sector was in for most the period I mentioned and the massive destruction of private wealth.
285 Irony. In Labour land only those who want to splurge cash or are recipients of it are worthy fellow travellers.
The rest of us don’t count unless we can be bribed to vote for them.
290 SO
As I say, the state’s role should be to oversee service provision so that it is done in our interests not in the interests of the service providers.
In that case you’re supporting the wrong party, Southam. That is a classic statement of Conservative philosophy. Hence the emphasis on, for example, Gove’s Swedish-style schools, which are precisely intended to break the current service providers’ monopoly, which has had such a baleful effect of educational quality.
300 *claps*
Exactly.
290 - Embarrassingly or overly personally, SO, I moved abroad for love. It also happens to save me having my tax wasted by the buffoon currently in charge of the UK government.
311 - where to, Id?
Good reason to move, by the way
One for Stuart - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8124875.stm
295 - I think it is unbelievably short term (and, therefore, counterproductive) to alter the working conditions of public sector employees when we want to ensure the best people are working in the public sector. Indeed I suspect that many of the calls to mess around with public sector wage packages are from peple who would actually like to see the public sector come to an end but do not have the political courage to argue this point.
Telegraph and Times (and the Daily Rant) websites aren’t even reporting Gordo big announcement yet, maybe they are as underwhelmed as I guess a lot of people will be.
Southam Observer
Do you think £100K is too much for the basic salary for a GP?
Do you thnk public sector pensions are affordable in the long term?
Do you think public sector pensions are equitable when compared to
private sector ones?
Lots of surveys say people are prepared in theory to pay more tax for better public services
yeah right. Do you think that the massive amount of extra tax taken by Labour since 1997 has been spent wisely or efficiently?
Mostly, I do not. THAT is why yet more tax is unpalatable, and spending cuts are essential to control out national debt. There must be a limit to the “throw money at it” argument.
300 - You are presumeing both are on average wages and both work full time, and of course a ouple on £58k per year wouldn’t get child tax credits.
I have some sympathy with your point about the income tax starting points, but Camerons plans are to give a tax brak for marriage which
a.Further complicates the tax system
a.Benefits himself while he is cutting the incomes of the middle classes with children.
So, no rebuke from the Speaker, I take it?
If not, he’s failed. I hope Cameron mocks Brown for being rude and not following the Speaker’s edict at PMQs.
Reading through this thread two articles on Michael Jackson struck me as illustrative.
The Daily Telegraph reports “Michael Jackson ‘in the shape of his life’ before he died…Doctors who checked him out for the insurance firms were amazed. One of them even joked that he had the condition of a 20-year-old”. The Daily Mail reports “Michael Jackson was bald, barely eating and his stomach contained only partially-dissolved pills when he died, ….His hips, thighs and shoulders were pock-marked with needle wounds, believed to be the legacy of narcotic painkillers being injected three times a day”
Gordon Brown will have us believe that the UK is “as fit as a 20 year old”, saying “look how well it’s responding to the actions I’ve taken”, dismissing the stories of debt addiction, cash problems, extravagant spending. He thinks that a few more injections and all will be well.
The Conservatives say the economy needs to go through “cold turkey” but aren’t willing to go into detail on the treatment because they don’t know which particular drugs are being taken nor how serious is the damage already done. Cold Turkey has its own dangers, and Cameron doesn’t want us to dwell on those.
So will the public see the dancing superstar or the bald, drug raddled reality? Will they agree that a bit more medication will restore vitality or will it kill the future.
309 Rose Tinted classes from the party that demanded less regulation of the city in the run up to the Banking crisis.
It has been argued on pb.com by Tories that Conservative Party philosophy is a contradiction in terms. With the exception of the Thatcher ideologues, I though you were all charming pragmatists rather than small govt zealots.
314 - How are the government ensuring the best people are working in teaching? In science and maths, what proportion of the teachers actually have a degree in the subject they teach these days? How many people with 1st’s from the best universities are going into teaching in state schools? What are the requirements to get on a PGCE course, academic excellence? Do you think educational standards have risen over the past 12 years?
Public sector pensions should not be run by the govt.
Employee and employer should pay into a fund and let someone manage it : either a private sector pension fund or the union if the civil servants are so anti-profit.
The govt should get out of the civil service pension business for ever.
If lots of people quit because they don’t like it then salaries will have to rise - but in the current economic climate I doubt it will happen.
Welcome to reality.
314 There are many people who do valuable things in the private sector, too, whose terms and conditions are being altered far more radically than anyone is proposing in relation to public sector employees. Simply, because their employers would go bust otherwise.
I think it unreasonable that they - and they alone, should be the ones who have to bear the cost of this governments mistakes, but we’ll just have to agree to differ on that.
309 - If I see the Tories actually doing it then that would be a significant changer for me. I just do not think they will. Given that they are going to be in power soon it would be nice to be wrong though. I fell out with Labour along time ago and the LibDems just do not do it for me.
Mandelson being jostled out of legislative programme meaning Post Office Bill may not be brought back to the House before the Recess. Never do today that you can put off ’til tomorrow? Do they think anyone, even the most sycophantic, lazy, backward Labour Supporter will believe that spin?
Unless the Government are going to climbdown completely this will now be looming over Labour at the TUC & Labour Party Conference, are they crazy?
Certainly all those doctors and publicists who declared “Jackson’s as fit as a fiddle!” should feel suitably ashamed.
317 In principle, any tax cut will benefit Cameron, because he’s a taxpayer. Somehow, I’d be surprised if that were uppermost in his mind when working out fiscal policy.
320 - The amount of regulation is a massive red herring. It isn’t how much or how little, it is getting the right regulation.
Gordo’s tri-partite system has failed massively and even though the likes of the BoE tell him and Darling it is broken, what are they doing, nothing! They are going to carry on with the same system, just with more red tape for the idiots at the FSA to be confused by!
What about the overly complex tax system he has overseen the growth of? Has it stopped any of the tax dodging, including from the likes of his own cabinet, doesn’t seem that way!
317 Married couples generally have more stable relationships and are QED less likely to have no male role model.
Male/female monogamous [well given the odd covert affair] relationships have proven over very many decades to be the most effective way to raise balanced/secure kids.
What is wrong with giving tax breaks to this behaviour given all the social problems that we have?
And this isn’t a Tory view point - it is a socially conservative opinion.
Jack Straw is digging himself into an enormous hole regarding the Parliamentry Standards Bill.
328 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
330, is that the one where stuff said in Parliament can be used in court for the first time?
321 - Yes I do think that educational standards ave risen over the last 12 years. I base this on my experience of state school and the experiences of my children.
Whether current educaitonal policies are the best they can be is not the point here - they probably are not. The point is that a pre-requisite of having a world class state education system is having the best possible teachers. And to get them you have to offer them excellent working conditions.
I have no problems with GPs earning £100,000 a year if they earn it. That’s where the government comes in. I am surprised that the Tories support GPs doing less work than they are being asked to do by the government for the same amount of money as they get now.
O/T:- It is just me or does this story about what happened with Jackson in the run up to his death sound very iffy?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/michael-jackson/5686627/Michael-Jacksons-doctor-couldnt-dial-911-because-phones-didnt-work.html
327 - Of course you are right, and I am absolutely sure that the camerons will benefit “accidentally” from most of the Conservative Parties tax changes, and the middle classes wil pay more.
So, have we now got Brown’s vision? The one he promised us when he declined to hold an election two years ago? If so, please can someone tell me what it is?
329. I’d argue that marriage is a common symptom of stable relationships with good child upbringings and trying to financially incentivise it will not actually benefit anyone.
334 - like the doctor not knowing the address of his client even when he’s at the house?
320 Jonathan
I can’t speak for others, but I’m certainly a ‘charming pragmatist’.
336. Glass eye half empty ?
333 - From somebody at the coal face, and talking to others in a similar boat, that is not the common view of academics at the top universities. I regularly take classes with kids with 3-6 A’s at A-level, everybody has a minimum of 3 A’s at A-level, and their knowledge is lacking in fundamental areas. A-level now are very narrow in focus, and exam questions a) often repeated and b) are broken down into too smaller a chunks to properly test understanding (rather than repetition).
Even more concerning, is the lack of ability to think for themselves, they have been taught to pass exams in a robotic nature. As I have said before, speaking generally, you find that the kids of private schools have been encouraged to develop their logical thinking abilities far more.
335 Yes, it’s really likely that for Cameron, a millionaire, the prospect of saving £20 a week tax is uppermost in his mind.
Parliamentary Standards Bill being debated in Parliament, Jack Straw leading for Government….and drowning. Whether you are a Labour supporter or not, the way legislation is presented has been dreadful.
The new authority governing elected MPs looks like a dogs dinner. Not quite Iran’s Supreme Council, but a fundamental alteration to the rights of the public, being rushed through Parliament so that the PM can earn 1 days good headlines.
337 - I think thats what the last Conservative Chancellor Ken Clarke concluded.
Average cost of wedding £18k
Proposed Married Couples Tax allowance £1k
Average Length of marriage 11 years.
Cameron Policy?
Bollox.
309
As long has he doesn’t write about them!
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/06/has-gove-breached-party-rules-on-outside-earnings.html
Jonathan - Don’t think this has been asked, but do you subscribe to Brown’s view that no reductions in public expenditure will be necessary beyond 2011?
327.Why even debate tim???? The idea Cameron is introducing a tax cut purely for personal gain is laughable, by debating tim you simply encourage him to post more.
344. Us poshos tim don’t pay for our own weddings - our parents do - so its actually our fun way of avoiding IHT.
342 - I agree.
Cameron policies will benefit himself and other millionaires in the same position “without thinking”
As a “reflex action”
We agree.
This debate on cuts benefiting anyone is childish and wrong.
There will be tax rises. And benefit cuts. And NHS cuts as well (the Tories are wrong).
The tax credit system will have to be drastically changed.
The present system is economically a disaster and unfundable.
I expect most people to be worse off…under whichever Government is in power.
Bernie Madoff is going to the Big House for 150 years….
347 - I’m not claiming its for personal gain, I’m arguing that the middles classes with kids will get hit through the tax system while people like the Camerons will benefit to encourage them to stay married.
OK.
Take the personality out of it.
A young couple with children will be hit to give money to Mark Thatcher.
Is that better.
352. A tax on being selfish - ideal.
49. TIM - In the time you have peddled the b0ll0cks out today i have copnverted some more LD voters to vote Tory at the next election.
When i told them about LD likely to prop up Labour anyway - they said that voting LD was a wasted vote and they were sick of Brown and Labour so they would vote Tory! I said that was the right thing to do and the LD could not win here and the Tories in Huddersfield were neck and neck with Labour citing the euro election result in Kirklees as a whole.
352 SMEAR ALERT
349.
Everyone Ignore Tim he is a complete W4nker
352 - You seem to be assuming that Mark will be left anything, maybe Carole will get it all to boost her Gollyw#g collection or might all go to charity.
I see a lot of the usual bile and bluster about Bercow before Brown’s statement, but little comment afterwards.
I watched the whole thing… he seems to be doing a fairly decent job to me. What do you think?
352 That’s an own goal of Brownian proportions. You say you’ll take personalities out of it and then drop one in the next sentence, thus demolishing your own argument.
You must be a self-made man who admires his creator…
Look, this thread has been totally derailed, again!!
Brown had a relaunch today, Mandelson dropped a couple of clangers on the Today programme which are very bad news for the government right now, and even more embarrassing for Brown, Darling and Bercow. The best way to stop this happening, is to ignore the chaff from Tim’s posts and focus on the bigger picture.
356 I shudder to think what the mess would be if he was an incomplete one
Housing budget to treble from £600million to £2.1 billion but there will be no overall increase in public expenditure…How can that be? Apparently it all comes from government underspend. So the government apparently had £1.5 billion just lying around. Unbelievable incompetance or deceit?
342 So, by that logic, when local councillors cut council taxes, they’re doing it to benefit themselves; and when governments reduce income tax, the MPs are doing it to benefit themselves.
344 - All that illustrates is that marriage is becoming the preserve of the middle classes.
I believe, though I can’t immediately find a source for this statement, that a majority of children in the UK are now born outside marriage (if immigrant families are excluded). If you believe - and I am open to persuasion on this either way - that encouraging greater commitment makes for more stability of family life, then the Tory policy is sound.
360 - Good point, but specifically on the Gordo relaunch, what relaunch? Rehash maybe, but relaunch, that requires new policy directions!!!
The Post Office privatisation getting the chop, now that just screams weakness and desperation to cling on until the bitter end.
341. All my academic friends say the same, including the left wing ones.
I think what tim is saying is that if Labour get back in in 2014 they will take money from poor working class married couples and their families and give it to Diane Abbot to send her son to a private school.
351. WOW! Thats the maximum sentence. Shame we can’t send Brown to jail for 150 years for ruining us…. Kicking him out of Downing St. will have to suffice.
tim, Jonathan, can you help explain what the long awaited Brown vision is please?
360 - Chris - Here, Here! Perhaps perversely, I now get more irritated by the futility of those ‘engaging’ with ‘tim’ than the idiot himself. It only encourages him.
362 - Maybe they might finally manage to build one 1 council house per council will all that “new” money, haven’t managed it yet!
Further to 364, not the most compelling source, but still:
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/91654
This bill is going to fail. The labour backbenchers are batting against it…..
362. The government’s strategy now seems to be to pile lie upon lie in the hope that those studying their ‘proposal’ (sic) will die of exhaustion….
Uh oh… Swine flu is becoming resistant to T@m1f1u
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8124987.stm
Mcshane: “My constituents expect me to advocate their views in this place and elsewhere, why should appointed busybodies have the right to question me, everytime I write an article on their behalf?”
Straw: *drowning noise*
Parts of the bill already being withdrawn! act in haste repent at leisure?
370 – [pedant mode]You mean “Hear, Hear!”.[/pedant mode]
(I usually try to avoid correcting this sort of thing, but that one’s my pet peeve….)
377 - I am most obliged. I’ll not err again.
376 chris_g00: A typical New Labour piece of ill-thought out and potentially dangerous legislation. The bill raises matters of major constitutional importance and it deserves very serious consideration, but Brown has rushed in with typical incompetence.
360 - I found out something very interesting from engaging with tim today. It appears that he wants to means test the basic state pension. I would be interested in the views of other Labour-supporting posters to find out whether they also want to see that.
379
Its the same old mantra , given a decision, Brown will always take the wrong one.
375 - that’s not quite true. In some instances, in some people, drugs like that sometimes don’t work in the way they should do. It doesn’t actually mean there is a resistant strain out there.
378 – If only our glorious leader were so gracious when people point out his mistakes…
369 For the benefit of G Brown:
vi·sion
Pronunciation:\ˈvi-zhən\
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin vision-, visio, from vidēre to see — more at wit
Date:14th century
1 a: something seen in a dream, trance, or ecstasy ; especially : a supernatural appearance that conveys a revelation b: a thought, concept, or object formed by the imagination c: a manifestation to the senses of something immaterial
2 a: the act or power of imagination b (1): mode of seeing or conceiving (2): unusual discernment or foresight c: direct mystical awareness of the supernatural usually in visible form
3 a: the act or power of seeing : sight b: the special sense by which the qualities of an object (as color, luminosity, shape, and size) constituting its appearance are perceived through a process in which light rays entering the eye are transformed by the retina into electrical signals that are transmitted to the brain via the optic nerve
4 a: something seen b: a lovely or charming sight
— vi·sion·al \ˈvizh-nəl, ˈvi-zhə-nəl\ adjective
— vi·sion·al·ly adverb
If Brown is having visions it is time to have him sectioned.
362. Underspend = money not spent in the spending cycle, it isnt new revenue money, its essentially unbudgeted for spending which will need to be accounted for in the next budget. Which equals either a spending cut elsewhere, a tax rise or the scrapping of the scheme. This government seem to be like the tenants from hell, who on moving out, steal the central heating and the built in appliances.
23: “Mike - “Maggie Thatcher will tell you that there comes a point when treating your chancellor in such a manner could cause an explosion.”
Will Alistair Darling “do a Geoffrey Howe”?
Let’s hope so!”
When Geoffrey Howe resigned he was Leader of the House of Commons and Deputy Prime Minister. He had not been Chancellor for over seven years.
I just find it bizarre that after repeatedly promising to share his vision absolutely no one seems to have any idea what it is. How long was Brown waiting for this job? How long has he been doing it now? How many times has he vowed to set out his vision? And still no one knows what it is. It cannot be that difficult to come up with something. Anything. Instead the vacuum fills with more and more commentators banging the Gordon Brown = liar drum.
350 - well said Madasafish
thanks Gordo
363. Nothing wrong with enlightened self interest, it is the very foundation of capitalist prosperity.
388
At the weekend it was being promulgated that Whitehall Depts were being asked to procuce ideas for policy. result …a complete vacuum.
Cameron’s reply
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/parliament/2009/06/david-cameron-taunts-gordon-brown-about-his-relaunch-without-a-pricetag.html
Darling will be busy this week - it’s the Treasury Sports and Awayday this week - no time to waste in Commons!
The new body does not have authority over MPs pay. Alan Duncan leading for the Tories has just had his entire argument collapse, he was arguing not least with his own side that MPs shouldn’t set their own rates of pay. Both front benches arguing that Parliament needs to become more accountable, the way they both see this happening is by setting up a QUANGO.
If Duncan had fallen due to his own expenses scandal, he wouldn’t have been a great loss for the Tories.
214. Historically, Treason was considered the most heinous crime and therefore attracted the harshest penalties [hanging, drawing and quartering for men, and burning for women.]
It also had its own rules of evidence, which set the burden of proof higher than for other capital crimes such as murder. At least two witnesses were required for any overt act of treason to be proven. In anticipation of Joyce’s case, the Labour government rushed through a repeal of this provision (Treason Act 1945), lowering the standard of proof to be the same as for murder, then applied it retroactively to Joyce.
As an alien, Joyce only owed what is known as “local” allegiance to the King, whilst actually resident in the UK. An American in Germany could not commit Treason against the King of England. Mr. Justice Tucker was therefore forced to dismiss the first two counts of the indictment against Joyce, namely that he had committed treason by broadcasting for the Germans throughout the War, and that he had committed treason by taking German citizenship in time of War. That left the final count, which was that Joyce had committed treason between 18th September 1939 and 2nd July 1940 by broadcasting for the Germans. This final count hinged on the “protection” argument, in relation to the passport which expired on 2nd July 1940. However, despite there being no evidence that Joyce intended to use the passport for any other purpose than travelling to Germany in August 1939 [a perfectly legal thing to do], Tucker J ruled that Joyce’s allegiance ran until the last day of the currency of the passport, effectively directing the jury to find Joyce guilty of treason on the remaining count. In his minority dissenting opinion in the House of Lords LJ Porter opined that the trial judge was wrong and should have left this question for the jury.
AJP Taylor thought the only crime Joyce had committed was misuse of a passport - the standard punishment for which was a £2 fine….
393 Chris:
Agree. We can’t trust MPs to behave honestly regarding a few thousand of their expenses, so they set up a Quango, yet we are expected to trust them regarding the running of this country and the allocation of billions of our money. What a joke!
I wonder how much this new quango is costing us? I imagine a few million in jobs for the old boys.
Scrap all these oversight bodies, have full transparency and let the electorate decide whether they approve of what their MP does.
JonathanD
341 6 A levels???!!!!
I got 3 straight As [sciences] and was considered top drawer material back in the 80s.
Even our biggest swots would never attempt more than 4 including General Studies for a clean sweep though they may have done the Oxbridge exam which is beside the point.
If it’s a regular activity to do six then I despair.
360 - Christina.
You posting of Fraser Nelsons article was a deliberate attempt to derail the thread wasn’t it?
Fraser accused Cameron of lying.
>> AJP Taylor thought the only crime Joyce had committed was misuse of a passport - the standard punishment for which was a £2 fine….
Times have changed..getting my renewed UK passport (including UPS to and from the British Embassy in DC) cost me $240 and took 8 weeks.
397. lol - if you say so tim.
Probably best not to use the L word too much though - it is already owned by someone else and every time you bring it up that’s all people will think of.
1st backbencher to speak on new Parliamentary Standards Bill is…Stuart Bell, Is there a less impressive MP? When Michael Martin initially refused to resign and had MPs from all sides shouting at him..Sir Stuart came out and said the Speaker had given an excellent statement. Been in the Commons way too long me thinks.
400, ah, Sir Stuart Bell-end who was very angry about the naughty Telegraph until he suddenly decided it was a very good thing.
In Morris Dancer country we have a name for men like him: cannon fodder
397 - I’m going to start calling you Mit, as you seem to get everything backwards.
The big question is why the Prime Minister is not telling the truth about spending plans which have been published by his own government.
Fraser’s reference to Cameron lying is as to whether he and Osborne should share an office, and have they discussed this with civil servants or not.
This is analogous to Prime Ministers saying they have no plans to call an election until the day they call it. It’s just accepted, as is the opposition’s liaison with the civil service laying the groundwork for government.
363 - I don’t believe local councillors cut taxes to benefit themselves.
Nor do I believe that David Camerons tax cuts are designed to benefit his family.
What is clear so far is that the effect of David Camerons tax lans, as revealed so far will be to benefit the wealthiest, particularly those who are married and particularly those inheriting lasrge amounts of money.
I think it is is clear also that those who are going to be hit will particularly be the working middle classes with children.
This of course contradicts Camerons claim that the pain will be spread evenly.
Lead story on SkyNews apparently reporting Michael Jackson has died.
The problem with A-levels is that the Government has tried to broaden sixth-form education, but without being accused of “dumbing down the gold standard of the A-level”. (This is a valid aim - the old 3 A-level system was extremely narrow by international standards.)
So something has had to give, and it’s been the breadth within each subject that has suffered, and the possibilities of going off-piste into things that are interesting and valuable, but not within the syllabus (not to mention all things extra-curricula).
404 - the singer or the general?
http://twitter.com/BreakingNews/statuses/2390027257
State TV saying legislature have confirmed Ahmekneesbad has won election.
406.If it were the General it would item 12 before sport but after weather.
403. “I think it is is clear also that those who are going to be hit will particularly be the working middle classes with children.”
Err aren’t they married? Isn’t marriage a good thing? Shouldn’t marriage be encouraged?
The working middle classes with children will be a lot better off when this Labour government is history.
394. The other nasty thing about the Joyce case, which I forgot to mention, was that in dismissing Joyce’s Appeal by a majority decision, the House of Lords failed to give their reasons - the reasons were finally published over a month after Joyce’s execution.
The question which therefore arises, and drew heavy criticism at the time, is that the Home Secretary was not in a position to fairly consider any application of the Royal Prerogative. Joyce’s execution was expedited, because it was recognised that any further delay would be untenable. Joyce went to the gallows without knowing exactly why.
The Joyce case has been fairly described as a blot on the escutcheon of British Justice.
407 Slightly less surprising than the news that Jacko is stilll dead…
404 - No resurrection yet then? Now that would be news.
407 - the only election taking longer than Have_my_dinner_dad’s is the Minnesota Senate election, which is still unresolved I think…
411 - reminds me of the man who died after drinking a tin of French polish. He had a horrible death but a lovely finish.
409 - Cameron today imlied that a primary target for cuts will be those middle class parents wh are getting tax credits.
Has Cameron yat announced a tax change where wealthy families will be worse off, or does “sharing the pain” have a hollow ring to it.
292
‘Whatever you believe. Surely the point is, if the Tories today have a policy to fiddle around with Tax credits or remove public sector pensions, they should share it with the electorate before the election.’
In the same way that before the 97 election, Blair told those in the private sector he was going to remove the £5 billion per year in tax relief and trash their pensions?
415 How’s the PB headline article getting on?
*twiddles thumbs*
415 - Since the Tories are accepting the rise in higher rate tax to 45%, the short answer to your question is yes.
417
Its being written in the bunker right now…
418 - Accepting the tax system as it stands when you inherit it is not a tax change.
There must be one Tax and benefit policy change that costs Dave more.
After all he’s spreading the pain.
417.I think Mr Smithson will be very careful not to criticise the new Speaker despite the lack of even the mildest ticking off for leaking Government statements over the last 4 days. Given his admonishment of Tories who had the audacity to criticise Bercow, before he took the chair, even inventing an anti-Semite slur, not backed-up, not withdrawn.
Whilst we’re waiting for tim’s nuanced analysis of HMG vs Opposition response to the expenses scandal…
I have some nice graphs courtesy of the Spectator about immigrant labour and boom jobs
421, although I too raised my eyebrow at that remark, I do think we should acknowledge that Mr. Smithson does a very good job usually of being objective and doesn’t allow his status as a Lib Dem to dictate his view of things.
420 - Ah, so you’re after more pain? So far, the Labour government seems to have singled out the rich as the sole recipients of the pain. Spreading the pain would logically require that to be balanced up, n’est ce pas?
409. Depends you you’re married to surely!
409. first “you” = “who”
Depends who you’re married to surely!
417 I’m quite happy to write a piece if Mike would like me to.
I’m sure we all agree that its a big issue that Cameron, despiting his moralising will be keeping his expense cheats in place.
419 - I hope you have learn’t a lesson from today tha popping up every time I post and saying smear smear smear bunker nokia, whatever is unnaceptable on a site such as this.
Particularly when some people are away and paying for their downloads on mobiles.
417 - I gather his expenses for the paper, felt tip pens, coffee maker, desk and chair are being held up by the Fees Office
(couldn’t figure out a way to include flipping, duck house or moat)
427 - Surely the government cabinet cheats being still in place is at least as worthy of attention as the shadow cabinet cheats - no?
427 - thats a no then
429 - not in tim world
422 - Your first graph replicates the mistake in the spectator.
You define as Foreign Workers people who have lived here for most of their lives and are British Citizens.
The Mayor of London is a Foreign Worker by the definition you use.
4727
Tim I did apologise to Mike (not to you) as I realised about bandwith after I had posted but there is no edit function at the moment.
To that extent, I have learned a lesson, but I certainly will be pointing it out to you every time you smear, or at least the especially nasty ones.
427 tim, Mike gave you his email address hours ago and welcomed your contribution.
How are you getting on? Writer’s block?
Several hundred thousand readers are eagerly awaiting more info about Labour’s/Gordon’s vote winning strategy
Frank Field demolishing Government bill to regulate Parliament.
“Why should members who play golf, go to sleep, watch football be considered normal rounded people, but others who work in business and fully declare their income are considered corrupt”
“Why should I sit with an egg timer everytime I do things when I work for a mutual society in Liverpool, for which I’m a non-executive Director”
Ministers are exempt from the Bill. This bill is a disaster, further undermining Parliamentary democracy, the Tory Front Bench need to grow a pair and oppose it.
431 - If I genuinely smear someone I’m happy to have you point it out.
Now a you realise what is and what isn’t a smear.
Would you like to outline for me a Conservative policy which, in the spirit of “spreading the pain” will result in the Cameron or Osborne family being worse off.
430 - It is you who is making the mistake. The alternative would be to treat Sven Svensson - a Swede who was born in Stockholm, went to school there and university in Uppsala, moved to London on graduation where he worked for a City firm and then ultimately aged 50 married an Englishwoman, then taking her nationality - as a Brit. That would be far more stupid. The most sensible definition of an immigrant is someone who was born outside the UK and who subsequently came here. I’m not sure what different definition you propose. That is, after all, the common meaning of the word in ordinary usage.
I have no particular problem classifying Boris Johnson as a foreign worker for this purpose (though one might include those who were born with British citizenship as non-immigrants). That is less anomalous than taking the opposite approach. Does it not bother you that you are setting yourself up in opposition to the Office for National Statistics on the point?
Anyone going to make it 800?
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/seat-profiles/sheffieldhallam/comment-page-16#comment-191612
430 and the rest are Boris’ relations?
Whatever Labour HQ are paying you - it really isn’t enough
I do wish that a level-headed pro-Labourite would post on here so we could debate their views - all we have are head-in-sand trolls and everyone else.
LabourHome is a great alternative site for those who don’t visit it much/at all.
437. That is a kind comment about Nick Palmer MP!
437 - even Labourhome doesn’t seem too thrilled with Brown et al generally
439. Everyone hates Gordon Brown! Even his friends hate him!
ED Balls if the papers are to be believed openly plots against Brown!
434
Tim, I KNOW what a smear is, you have given me ample practise in spotting them.
Any economics experts willing to think about the consequences of this? If China implodes is it inevitable that the world will follow?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/5675198/Chinas-banks-are-an-accident-waiting-to-happen-to-every-one-of-us.html
Murray hasn’t started to well.
435 - Mr Svensson would be regarded as Foreign Labour when he took up his job by everyone wouldn’t he?
My point is that for example, during the mid/late eighties immigration was roughly in balance 300,000 in 300,000 out.
Any children who moved here during the eighties, assumed British citizenship, were educated here are included in the “foreign labour/foreign worker” stats.
It gies a false picture, as Plato and Fraser Nelson are keen to create the impression that economic growth in the last twelve years has mainly brought in recent immigrants.
That is partly true, but included in that figure are the hundreds of thousands of children who moved here in the 70’s 80’s and Nineties who have since started work.
* * * BETTING POST * * *
Also one for the economics boffins… any views on the Next Governor of the Bank of England market?
http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_type&category=SPECIALS&ev_class_id=45&ev_type_id=8850&novelty=1
Charles Bean 13/8
Paul Tucker 7/4
Rachel Lomax 4/1
Nigel Jenkinson 8/1
Sir Mervyn Pedelty 8/1
Warwick Jones 12/1
Kate Barker 14/1
Sir John Gieve 16/1
John Footman 25/1
Andrew Bailey 33/1
Alan Greenspan 80/1
Alistair Darling 100/1
Gordon Brown 250/1
Alistair Campbell 500/1
443. councilhousetory
Dont like Murray. I hope he does well but he hardly says the right thing to get English support!
446 He’s having a mare of a first set…
Paddy Power also have markets on the next Archbishop of Canterbury, next Pope, 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner, and next editor of the Sun.
http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_sports_level1&category=SPECIALS&ev_class_id=45&novelty=1
Is 9/1 on Nazir-Ali being the next Archbishop of Canterbury good value? He has a very high profile and he seems like the most strident traditionalist in the Church hierarchy. But I don’t know how the selection process works…
NEW THREAD
447. I used love Tennis but the interesting players seem to have dissapeared! For instance in the 70’s, 80’s or even the early 90’s not only were they competitive and sportsman like but also charecters in their own right! Now they just seem to be boring terminator like machines! Yes i hope Murray wins but a dead body has more personality!
412. Nope. Messiah complex fail.
447/ Guido will be preparing his Jonah jinx on Murray story. Isn’t Brown hoping to benefit from an Andy Murray win at Wimbledon - dour Scot with no charisma can make it?